Discuss:Mathematics, Logic, Philosophy:Objecting to Objectivism

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1 Objecting to Objectivism

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Objecting to Objectivism

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charmed_quark - Thu Jan 8 19:10:56 2004

I think that the general aim of this organization is interesting and even noble, but I starting to worry about this Ayn Rand motif. So instead of dealling with it here and there, I'm hoping to concentrate the meme to one thread.

First off, I've read Atlas Shrugged. It was boring, pretenious and poorly written. The characters were unlikable, the plot was contrived, and the whole 'I Am John Galt' chapter was redundant and useless.

Second, the notion that selfishness and greed are positive values is insane. Greed is why wars are fought. Greed is why stock markets crash. Greed is why our environment is being destroyed. 'Enlightened self interest' just doesn't cut it in any real scenario.

Third, the unmitigated arrogance to assume any philosophy is objective is mind numbing. The only thing that is objective is rigorous axiomatic mathematical proofs, and I have some doubts about that.

There is room here for more than objectivism, but know that it is objective philosophy that drives all objectively worthwile human endeavor.

-- sunny

Can you name a single human endeavor that was driven by objective philosophy?

--charmed_quark Thu Jan 8 19:10:56 2004

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sunny - Sun Jan 11 12:28:03 2004

What you are suggesting is quite impossible. It is not an 'Ayn Rand motif' that you are suggesting to coalesce into a single discussion, but the necessary application of rationality used and applied during discussion. It is necessary that this site and its non-artistic content have a rational basis. This does not mean that irrational arguments will not be used or that fiction and other forms of art must have a rational basis. I assure you that I will critique this art on my own basis to form my own opinions and that the irrational will be critiqued as such for myself and those interested in my perspectives on art.

Irrational arguments used in critical discussion however will be consistently disavowed of their self-proclaimed relevance. You are likely making a claim that it is possible to be rational without being objective. You may attempt attempt this, but it is a contradiction.

You cannot claim to have a knowledge of objectivism when it is based upon fiction. Fiction is a form of art. The purpose of art is not to teach philosophy. Please read a non-fiction work that clearly discusses the basis of objectivism before launching an attack against it. I recommend both:
Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand by Leonard Peikoff
and Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology by Ayn Rand.

Your existing assessment of objectivism is simply unbased and irrelevant to a discussion of the philosophy and I will not argue opinion of art with you.

Philosophy does not drive human endeavor. I was clearly mistaken in my wording. Philosphy has the role of guiding human action. It is the application of a philosophy by the individual that drives human endeavor. Objectivism is a philosophy that does not condemn man for his progress and upholds his mind and his rational values. Look elsewhere and you will find a condemnation of man and his mind prevalent. Within the context of many other philosophies this condemnation is inescapable because of the premises upon which these philophies are based.

Quoted from a recently searched site from an essay by Robert Begley, ©May 1987
"Reason is the faculty of perceiving and integrating sensory evidence. This is what distinguishes us from every other species. It is our essential means of survival, our only means of gaining knowledge and only proper guide to action. Selfishness is the principle that I do not sacrifice myself to others nor others to myself. This ethical premise holds that nothing is more important on earth than my life; that I live by my rational judgment, for my own happiness. Individualism is the principle that I should be free to do so and so should everyone else; that I respect everyones right to pursue their own values and everyone respects mine. It is selfishness applied to a social context."

[ Edited Tue Jan 13 2004, 10:45PM ]
--sunny Sun Jan 11 12:28:03 2004

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sunny - Sun Jan 11 13:04:28 2004

Some searches online provide many examples of the intellectual application of objectivism.

[ Edited Sun Jan 11 2004, 04:05PM ]
--sunny Sun Jan 11 13:04:28 2004

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charmed_quark - Sun Jul 25 19:31:19 2004

Sunny: After your post, I was really, really going give an open minded evaluation. But after reading some headlines at aynrand.org:

"The goal of the animal-rights movement is to sacrifice and subjugate man to animals."

"A free market will solve America's energy problems."

"In the rush to grant the FCC greater control over broadcasters, no one has noticed that the FCC's very existence is a violation of free speech."

"Successful CEOs are indispensable to their companies and deserve their high salaries."

"No one has the right to prevent businesses from expanding to new locations."

This isn't logic and it isn't philosophy.
It is Rush Limbaugh crap or a White House press release.
I will not give heed to a belief system that give rises to these types of claims.
Remember, every philosophy or religion has claimed to be objective. That is why they fail.
--charmed_quark Sun Jul 25 19:31:19 2004